I’m gonna give it a listen. I can enjoy an artist’s work while not condoning all their views. Round and Round has always been on my driving playlist and is still one of my favorite 2010s songs. He’s a unique, mercurial figure.
Great piece. As an add-on to this quote, it’s worth saying that this is, essentially, the central mission of Pink’s music as well:
“Even at the time, this was a questionable vision. Trump 2 has proven it decisively false. Reality is fungible, even flexible. It can be broken.”
At his greatest, Pink makes his own version of reality, bringing together pieces of pastiche from the past. His music is “hypnagogic” (hate that term) because it feels like a version of the past that never actually existed. It’s both familiar and escapist. No wonder so many of his fans turned their backs after 2021. He popped the bubble of his escapist fantasy with something too “real,” “political,” and modern.
Truly great read Ian. Thanks for writing this. I’m curious about the new record and will make a point of listening. I always enjoyed his music, if not his politics, so might spend some time doing a deep dive. As for the mysterious John Maus, I was his support act for a UK gig several years ago. Found him to be a truly bizarre individual, he said something incredibly weird onstage which I best not repeat, but he was a performer of definite mystique and aura. Artists are strange, sensitive and contradictory beings.
I thought this was a great piece of writing but I’m also a little baffled that you consider Pink’s “cancellation” being entirely because of his politics when my assumption has always been that most people were more put off by the abuse allegations (true or not, the guy was still pushing 40 and dating a teenager) than the MAGA crap (we all have MAGA people in our lives, for the most part, and many of us can in fact accept it, I’d have to write off half my family and the people I grew up with if MAGA allegiance was this important). I think his framing of himself as a victim of political persecution is a psychological shell game to keep people off the abuse allegations, and that an article like this, which doesn’t even mention those allegations, is proof it worked. Also: A lot of people just had youthful dalliances with his music and essentially outgrew it? The stuff I listened to then… is not the stuff I necessarily want to listen to now. Is that cancellation? He’s an older guy now singing like a baby.
Ariel’s interpersonal relationships are a difficult subject for an outsider like me to navigate without devolving into gossip and hearsay. you may be right about that being a primary factor in people’s disassociation with him, but i think it’s clear that the public backlash he faced stemmed entirely from January 6th situation
as for outgrowing music you used to listen to: totally fair! i still just dig it
Again, I thought the article was well-written and thoughtful, and that your analysis of the political reality we’re living in which we’re forced to contend with amoral psychopathy on on side and soy-fueled abnegation of power on the other was spot-on, but I can’t agree that the public backlash was entirely about the January 6th stuff given the #MeToo climate of the day. I think he could’ve weathered the MAGA crap longterm (see: Maus), and possibly even the hazy interpersonal matters (see: Ryan Adams), but that both of them hitting simultaneously, coupled with the fact that his public facing self is that of a whining middle-aged man blaming cancel cultural forces for the entirety of his predicament, has rendered him irrelevant to the (very few) remaining people who would write about his music, which was always niche to begin with with, and frankly overhyped (one man’s opinion).
I think if he… you know, tried really hard to make a great album, if he worked super hard and got focused and dropped some kind of modern classic (see: Cindy Lee), that plenty of people would write about and people would listen to it because Quality is in fact something people enjoy. I gave this album a listen this morning after you wrote about it because I do think you have great taste (see: 11 Tracks of Whack) and I can go for some outré shit myself (get that Wednesday shit out of here and take MJ Lenderman with it!) but it just sounds like slop to me, sorry.
Anyway, I do appreciate the article and I even appreciate that this dude is out there being weird and that in a more perfect world he would drop the kind of Wyld Stallyyns-esque transcendent pop classic to unite the MAGA-SOY universe and push us into a new reality but uh he didn’t, and I think that blaming the entirety of his irrelevance on people not being able to accept his politics isn’t necessarily true. Cool that you took it on though and did such a great job, I remain a fan of yours and a grudging acceptor of Mr. Pink.
Whatever happened to my college belle/When did she turn into the wife from hell
Could definitely see that as an Ariel Pink lyric.
Thanks again for the article, think it was cool you wrote about him, I really enjoy thinking about this topic — the collision of culture, personality, and politics, and how to transcend our own bubbles — and this guy’s music and “thing” are as good a platform for that topic as exists currently. That you handled it this evenhandedly was impressive as hell. We’d be way better off if we could all discuss this shit like people who can hold conflicting ideas and viewpoints in our heads at the same time. We might be the kind of country that could effectively ward off fascism if we knew how to talk about this shit together, and to be brave enough to communicate it.
it certainly put a sour taste in my mouth, but i think 1) it’s gone a bit underreported, and 2) it’s less of a factor than you’d think. i know ppl in their early-mid 20s getting into sun kil moon now who are only vaguely aware of his abuse allegations, which were much better reported and, imo, even worse. difference is that he didn’t go on a press tour trying to own the libs.
I don’t care about a press tour trying to own the libs so much as I think he comes across as a whining ass baby. Him being a whining ass baby is also problematic because nobody likes a whining ass baby. I take your point though. And honestly I don’t know jack crap about Maus. So much of this to me is overblown simply because these are such niche acts. Interesting topic for sure though.
i’d disagree that maus didn’t face any pushback for the jan 6 thing. he didn’t go silent as usual; he went underground. when he tried to come back at electronicon two years ago, the outcry was so loud that he got pulled. in his comeback this year, his entire press tour has also been an apology tour for january 6. he’s slowly coming back, but far as i can tell, he’s on thin ice.
I'd put several of Ariel's albums at a full 5 stars (House Arrest, The Doldrums, Pom Pom) and I was a bit underwhelmed by this one at first - partly because the production is neither the gauzy atmospheric-ness of his early work nor the beautiful full productions of his later work - it's very 'self-produced' sounding, but not in the good way. I wish he still had his old touring band working on this, and enough support to properly record it...
That said, this has grown on me to 4 stars.. "Out Of My Way" is a mysterious yacht-y beauty, "Life Before Today" is one of his best ever compositions, "Off The Dome" really gets me going, and "Pocket Full of Promises" and "Everyone's Wrong" are both favorites that will stand the test of time. There are lowlights.. "Why" is an R.E.O. Speedwagon ape that almost seems like bait to make fun of him. "Entertainment" is a poor late-Prefab Sprout style thing, with particularly terrible production. "Doggie In The Window" is incredibly lazy slop that might show up on one of his rarities compilations, and I didn't actually like "House of the Haunted Hebrews" at all. Who knows, maybe things I don't like will grow on me, as his stuff tends to do.
Seeing him live over the years has been a roller coaster to say the least, ranging from him playing an entire set of nothing garbage (Bobby Jameson tour, no songs from the album or any other album played that I could tell..), to an incredible pristine set (Pom Pom tour). He has done some other fantastic live shows (check out the wild version of "Netherlands' at the 2015 pitchfork festival in Paris, probably my favorite ever live performance other than stuff from David Bowie's Cracked Actor bootleg.. it's on YouTube). I'm looking forward to seeing him on this tour, although I have low expectations.
I'm aware you had Ariel on Jokermen for some Steely Dan action (didn't hear it/am not subscribed like that) - from that interaction y'all had do you think you'd be able to interview him just as a musician/artist? Would he be capable of that if y'all were even interested in talking about his new shit?
I wouldn’t have any problem interviewing Ariel, but I’m not sure it would be a particularly productive conversation. He and I have been trading messages in the wake of this review, and it’s clear that we have some fundamental differences in the way we view things
As for the Steely Dan ep: you’re not missing much lol
Also, sadly, Ariel is not really a good communicator to say the least. I've almost never heard him say a sentence that really fully makes sense. I'm not what his issue is, I'm guessing he has some drug related brain damage from the late 90s/early 00s..
Jeez, Ian- it sounds like you are advocating for a dictatorship-like form of government, but one that just happens to align with your values and beliefs, instead of the cruelty and division and self-interest that is behind the current Dear Leader.
I’m advocating for a government that uses its considerable might to improve the material reality of its constituents in order to allow them to lead more fulfilling, more beautiful lives free of poverty, sickness, and violence
I would call something like that “democracy,” but your mileage may vary
I’m gonna give it a listen. I can enjoy an artist’s work while not condoning all their views. Round and Round has always been on my driving playlist and is still one of my favorite 2010s songs. He’s a unique, mercurial figure.
"Round and Round" an eternal, immortal banger
Great piece. As an add-on to this quote, it’s worth saying that this is, essentially, the central mission of Pink’s music as well:
“Even at the time, this was a questionable vision. Trump 2 has proven it decisively false. Reality is fungible, even flexible. It can be broken.”
At his greatest, Pink makes his own version of reality, bringing together pieces of pastiche from the past. His music is “hypnagogic” (hate that term) because it feels like a version of the past that never actually existed. It’s both familiar and escapist. No wonder so many of his fans turned their backs after 2021. He popped the bubble of his escapist fantasy with something too “real,” “political,” and modern.
Truly great read Ian. Thanks for writing this. I’m curious about the new record and will make a point of listening. I always enjoyed his music, if not his politics, so might spend some time doing a deep dive. As for the mysterious John Maus, I was his support act for a UK gig several years ago. Found him to be a truly bizarre individual, he said something incredibly weird onstage which I best not repeat, but he was a performer of definite mystique and aura. Artists are strange, sensitive and contradictory beings.
I thought this was a great piece of writing but I’m also a little baffled that you consider Pink’s “cancellation” being entirely because of his politics when my assumption has always been that most people were more put off by the abuse allegations (true or not, the guy was still pushing 40 and dating a teenager) than the MAGA crap (we all have MAGA people in our lives, for the most part, and many of us can in fact accept it, I’d have to write off half my family and the people I grew up with if MAGA allegiance was this important). I think his framing of himself as a victim of political persecution is a psychological shell game to keep people off the abuse allegations, and that an article like this, which doesn’t even mention those allegations, is proof it worked. Also: A lot of people just had youthful dalliances with his music and essentially outgrew it? The stuff I listened to then… is not the stuff I necessarily want to listen to now. Is that cancellation? He’s an older guy now singing like a baby.
Ariel’s interpersonal relationships are a difficult subject for an outsider like me to navigate without devolving into gossip and hearsay. you may be right about that being a primary factor in people’s disassociation with him, but i think it’s clear that the public backlash he faced stemmed entirely from January 6th situation
as for outgrowing music you used to listen to: totally fair! i still just dig it
Again, I thought the article was well-written and thoughtful, and that your analysis of the political reality we’re living in which we’re forced to contend with amoral psychopathy on on side and soy-fueled abnegation of power on the other was spot-on, but I can’t agree that the public backlash was entirely about the January 6th stuff given the #MeToo climate of the day. I think he could’ve weathered the MAGA crap longterm (see: Maus), and possibly even the hazy interpersonal matters (see: Ryan Adams), but that both of them hitting simultaneously, coupled with the fact that his public facing self is that of a whining middle-aged man blaming cancel cultural forces for the entirety of his predicament, has rendered him irrelevant to the (very few) remaining people who would write about his music, which was always niche to begin with with, and frankly overhyped (one man’s opinion).
I think if he… you know, tried really hard to make a great album, if he worked super hard and got focused and dropped some kind of modern classic (see: Cindy Lee), that plenty of people would write about and people would listen to it because Quality is in fact something people enjoy. I gave this album a listen this morning after you wrote about it because I do think you have great taste (see: 11 Tracks of Whack) and I can go for some outré shit myself (get that Wednesday shit out of here and take MJ Lenderman with it!) but it just sounds like slop to me, sorry.
Anyway, I do appreciate the article and I even appreciate that this dude is out there being weird and that in a more perfect world he would drop the kind of Wyld Stallyyns-esque transcendent pop classic to unite the MAGA-SOY universe and push us into a new reality but uh he didn’t, and I think that blaming the entirety of his irrelevance on people not being able to accept his politics isn’t necessarily true. Cool that you took it on though and did such a great job, I remain a fan of yours and a grudging acceptor of Mr. Pink.
fair enough! appreciate the thoughtful engagement
as much as I might like the new Ariel record, it’s no 11 Tracks of Whack lol
Whatever happened to my college belle/When did she turn into the wife from hell
Could definitely see that as an Ariel Pink lyric.
Thanks again for the article, think it was cool you wrote about him, I really enjoy thinking about this topic — the collision of culture, personality, and politics, and how to transcend our own bubbles — and this guy’s music and “thing” are as good a platform for that topic as exists currently. That you handled it this evenhandedly was impressive as hell. We’d be way better off if we could all discuss this shit like people who can hold conflicting ideas and viewpoints in our heads at the same time. We might be the kind of country that could effectively ward off fascism if we knew how to talk about this shit together, and to be brave enough to communicate it.
Maybe you should run for governor.
re: abuse allegations
it certainly put a sour taste in my mouth, but i think 1) it’s gone a bit underreported, and 2) it’s less of a factor than you’d think. i know ppl in their early-mid 20s getting into sun kil moon now who are only vaguely aware of his abuse allegations, which were much better reported and, imo, even worse. difference is that he didn’t go on a press tour trying to own the libs.
I don’t care about a press tour trying to own the libs so much as I think he comes across as a whining ass baby. Him being a whining ass baby is also problematic because nobody likes a whining ass baby. I take your point though. And honestly I don’t know jack crap about Maus. So much of this to me is overblown simply because these are such niche acts. Interesting topic for sure though.
i’d disagree that maus didn’t face any pushback for the jan 6 thing. he didn’t go silent as usual; he went underground. when he tried to come back at electronicon two years ago, the outcry was so loud that he got pulled. in his comeback this year, his entire press tour has also been an apology tour for january 6. he’s slowly coming back, but far as i can tell, he’s on thin ice.
I'd put several of Ariel's albums at a full 5 stars (House Arrest, The Doldrums, Pom Pom) and I was a bit underwhelmed by this one at first - partly because the production is neither the gauzy atmospheric-ness of his early work nor the beautiful full productions of his later work - it's very 'self-produced' sounding, but not in the good way. I wish he still had his old touring band working on this, and enough support to properly record it...
That said, this has grown on me to 4 stars.. "Out Of My Way" is a mysterious yacht-y beauty, "Life Before Today" is one of his best ever compositions, "Off The Dome" really gets me going, and "Pocket Full of Promises" and "Everyone's Wrong" are both favorites that will stand the test of time. There are lowlights.. "Why" is an R.E.O. Speedwagon ape that almost seems like bait to make fun of him. "Entertainment" is a poor late-Prefab Sprout style thing, with particularly terrible production. "Doggie In The Window" is incredibly lazy slop that might show up on one of his rarities compilations, and I didn't actually like "House of the Haunted Hebrews" at all. Who knows, maybe things I don't like will grow on me, as his stuff tends to do.
Seeing him live over the years has been a roller coaster to say the least, ranging from him playing an entire set of nothing garbage (Bobby Jameson tour, no songs from the album or any other album played that I could tell..), to an incredible pristine set (Pom Pom tour). He has done some other fantastic live shows (check out the wild version of "Netherlands' at the 2015 pitchfork festival in Paris, probably my favorite ever live performance other than stuff from David Bowie's Cracked Actor bootleg.. it's on YouTube). I'm looking forward to seeing him on this tour, although I have low expectations.
Have you considered pulling the podcast from whatever country Ariel Pink lives?
As objectionable as any of Ariel Pink’s beliefs may be, he has not in any way participated in genocide
The same cannot, unfortunately, be said for the people of Israel
Ahh, so it’s not the government of Israel, after all. it’s those gosh darn people.
I'm aware you had Ariel on Jokermen for some Steely Dan action (didn't hear it/am not subscribed like that) - from that interaction y'all had do you think you'd be able to interview him just as a musician/artist? Would he be capable of that if y'all were even interested in talking about his new shit?
I wouldn’t have any problem interviewing Ariel, but I’m not sure it would be a particularly productive conversation. He and I have been trading messages in the wake of this review, and it’s clear that we have some fundamental differences in the way we view things
As for the Steely Dan ep: you’re not missing much lol
Also, sadly, Ariel is not really a good communicator to say the least. I've almost never heard him say a sentence that really fully makes sense. I'm not what his issue is, I'm guessing he has some drug related brain damage from the late 90s/early 00s..
Jeez, Ian- it sounds like you are advocating for a dictatorship-like form of government, but one that just happens to align with your values and beliefs, instead of the cruelty and division and self-interest that is behind the current Dear Leader.
I’m advocating for a government that uses its considerable might to improve the material reality of its constituents in order to allow them to lead more fulfilling, more beautiful lives free of poverty, sickness, and violence
I would call something like that “democracy,” but your mileage may vary